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 2 month character ban policy

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Emmz
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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:44 pm

If there's going to be so much debate about this, then why not make it a poll? Let us decide what we deem appropriate, and find a way to avoid those who don't change characters often, but would still have to wait 2 months in order to change a character, in the end, yes it punishes those who change characters too often, but you're also punishing those who spend time and effort with their chars that they eventually lose muse for.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:46 pm

It is for that exact reason that I'm not considering making a poll. It punishes very few people, and even then it's only constructive. This rule fixes issues, it doesn't create them unless you're on the end of a very severe spectrum. We're always open to new people, and I like to think we're also helping them develop and learn as roleplayers. This rule helps towards that.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:51 pm

I firmly believe if you lose muse for a character in less than two months then you made an impulse character or haven't made an honest effort to enjoy the character. Waiting two months gives you the chance to get the muse you originally planned on back.

And Mega, your issue with being in threads that die doesn't make sense to me. You can be in as many threads as you want. If your threads die, join new ones. It's not like anyone can complain if you slow down to match their pace in posting.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:59 pm

Archer wrote:
There's already rules in place to punish people like this. If they go inactive for a month then their apps are placed in Inactive and require reapproval

You do realize then that all a member has to do then is drop off the site for a month, wait for their new app to go down, and then make a new one yes? That's like half the time if they toughed it out.

And your math problem does not account for MANY variables. You are assuming the new member has the time/motivation to post on a regular basis. What if they're in school? What if they're in school AND have a job? What if they're a much younger and as Moon said, this is a hobby, and simply choose not to come on EVERYDAY, along with all the other things that could exist in their life. ALSO that depends on WHO THEY POST WITH. Many of us have different timezones or have vastly different schedules. So to say anyone can be "active" is absurd.

And it doesn't take long to figure out if you like a character or not. I of all people would know this, and you would also know that I would from the various times that I have dropped a character for one reason or another.

Finally, as I already stated but it was glossed over, IT DOES NOT actually help them. It is literally just a warning label. It's still up to the new member how they use that information. They "could" take it seriously and spend any number of hours working on a profile, get bored half way through and then bugger off. Or they could post it, run into dead ends with threads and be back at square one.

Bloo, if you're frustrated because threads keep dying it's not as simple as "start new ones" if you were pushing toward a specific route. Such as a dramatic thread to develop your character. You're saying if our dramatic thread gets screwed we should "just start a new dramatic thread?"

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:12 pm

Well fine, if you guys want to kill the site, so be it, people are impatient, people will come and make a character, realise that character is not for them, want to change it but then find that they can't, then they'll just leave. It's fine if you want that to happen, its fine if you don't want those kinds of people joining the site, but I'm just making sure you're aware (as I'm sure you all are) that the more restrictions you put on people, the more they'll just leave.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:46 pm

Or alternatively Bloo, something happened that I no longer wanna play said impulse character.

Yang and Blake were both made on impulse and have been around longer than most characters in general. Sometimes people just need to throw wet noodles at a wall until one sticks. And this rule sucks major donkey (*#$ for those people.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:20 pm

Ok time for Ferg to put in his two cents no one asked for.

Honestly my thoughts on the rule is that it should coincide with the whole character slots rules. The more you have the longer you have to wait. Also the two month thing is a problem if a punishment is less severe than the restrictions of the rule itself.

If you only have one slot (i.e new member) then you should be allowed to switch as much as you want to find your character. (not gonna count B-Teamers here at all since i consider them half slots)

Two then you should hold on to your character from 2 weeks to a month. Mostly to give you that time to really think on if you want to keep your character. Plus most of your rping with that character happens within the first two weeks of creation.

3 slots then its gonna be a minute... probably the max month that you have to hold on. It discourages impulse switching and really encourages you to think of your next character.

Summary: Newer members should be exempt from the wait overall because, well... they're new. All they can do is just throw an idea and see what sticks. When you have multiple slots the wait shouldn't be that big of a deal, its not like you don't have anything to do... Besides by the time it naturally gets looked at that month would probably be up anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:45 pm

This will probably be the last time I post in this topic since everything's been covered, just want to do some little bullet points to wrap up. Unless something else grabs my attention atleast. Oh, and it's funny that I've gotten more posts out of this then anything else I've done in character this week~

Bloo wrote:


First, it's to stop people from making new characters every week. We've all seen those apps that end in frustration and require all kinds of tweaks right away and a serious review. It's frustrating for the mod staff to look at characters from the same rp'er three times a week. Especially when I went through the effort of balancing an app just for it to be dropped the next week.

Nope. I usually don't pay attention to that section unless it's been about a week and I'm waiting for an app to get looked at. Perhaps they got dropped because the owner got discouraged from the hassle and or time it took for the app to get reviewed.

Bloo wrote:


Second, it's to encourage people to make better characters. Sometimes we all lose muse, I understand that more than anyone here, but to be honest the trick to getting it back is to keep writing and find something new with the character. Once you get them involved in something more, you'll get your muse back, and if by the end of the two months you don't have it back then go ahead and drop it.


How does this actually encourage them? As I said, this policy functions like a warning label just so the company can claim they did something to prevent something happening without having to actually make a conscious effort. And that may work for you, Bloo but everyone has their own means to deal with writer's block. I find trying to do that when I'm just not in the mood on a given day causes my post quality to drop.

Bloo wrote:


Lastly, when you know you'll have the character for at least two months you're going to make a better character. This helps everyone. You'll be less likely to lose muse if you took time to plan a character instead of making it on impulse. The people you're rping with will have a better time because they're actually rping with a character that is complete and dynamic. It's a quality control. To be honest, I'd rather everyone have 1-2 complete and interesting characters than 4 impulse ones they made based off a show. I dont know

You are not less likely to lose muse if you took your time making the character. It simply means you spent more time that may have been wasted if you can't get your character active, due possibly to dead threads or real life stuff.


Moon wrote:


Example just in case I wasn't clear, again I'm watching TV as we speak XD .
Say I see this bomb trailer for a new show (like Mr.Robot) and I want to make a character similar to Elliot. I have an open spot so I just go ahead and throw him together. Now I enjoy him at first, but I realize how hard it is to have a regular dude that can just hack so I don't want him anymore. Now I have to wait 2 months before j can drop him. After I have him for two months I can drop him and pick up the next character I like.

You have just described a typical new member, and yes it would be a good idea for them to cbrp their idea first. How many have that thought during their first day here? Also- I've been paying alittle more attention to the character board and noticed we have a character with powers identical to Raven. Perhaps you should have suggested they cbrp their character before letting the app get to second approval.


Archer wrote:

Yes, some people agree with you. Some. Far from a majority, especially in consideration of the members on the entire site as opposed to only the ones in this thread.

Since I am bringing this up on behalf of potential new members (yes this is not just me complaining because this policy personally bothers me), I'd like to point out that all of the most recent new members who have approved characters (Tachi and Mimir) have established they think the policy should be adjusted. Those of us who already have 2+ characters are not the focus for this issue.

Archer wrote:

You complain about having to wait two months after making a character to drop it. I don't see why. You only did half the work. We had to go to the trouble to approve it, twice, to make sure it was balanced enough for our site. This rule is completely fair.

I didn't know you were taking credit for the time spent researching, balancing it, proofreading it, looking for reference pictures, trying to have the right amount of detail in anything while still being clear on what you're trying to do, making minor adjustments depending on how you feel at the end, AND THEN the extra work handed down by the mods if they find issue. Rinse repeat. I am not saying that reviewing an app isn't work. I AM saying however one party is simply making sure everything is on the up and up, then delegating any tweaks or edits needed before they put their stamp on it. The creators are the ones doing the bulk of the actual labor.

Basically I'm comparing this to an employee and manager/supervisor relationship >.>

Archer wrote:

Let's do a quick math problem. An active member, though quite stretching the term, in my opinion would post once every three days. Two months is roughly 60 days. Are you telling me you can't make at least twenty posts as a character over the course of two months? No, no...I'm not catering to this. If this is recognized as an issue then I'll put more thought into it. But to me it seems like this problem is nothing of the sort and you guys are being paranoid.

1. I misread the bit about once every three days so that's my bad. But as I mentioned it doesn't take into account various external factors.

2. Does this math include the time it takes for an app to get reviewed?

3. It IS a problem if you are a new member with ONE character slot. And both of the most recent newbies have already stated they think it should be adjusted. So it is a problem to THEM.

4. It's easy to not see it as a problem when you have several characters already isn't it?


Moon wrote:

Maybe the scenario would be different if we were a bunch of business men trying to make sure that we keep every person we get or else our business will plummet, but in the end this is just a hobby. This rule encourages people to take their time with characters and not make impulse decisions. They could always go through modifications to their character if they'd like, it's not like that isn't an option.

As I said, it encourages nothing. It is a warning label. So you don't care at all if we get any new members? Or rather care at all if we get new members who stick around for longer then a couple of weeks?


Archer wrote:
It is for that exact reason that I'm not considering making a poll. It punishes very few people, and even then it's only constructive. This rule fixes issues, it doesn't create them unless you're on the end of a very severe spectrum. We're always open to new people, and I like to think we're also helping them develop and learn as roleplayers. This rule helps towards that.

Both Tachi and Mimir think it should be adjusted. Thereby, this has created an issue. And you're not helping them with your warning label policy. Emblem is actually taking the time to help members through little rp sessions. Surprised that wasn't brought up sooner.


Fergalicious wrote:
Besides by the time it naturally gets looked at that month would probably be up anyway.

I totally agree with Ferg's whole post. I just wanted to highlight that part Troll

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:03 am

Addressing your points in order.

1. Encouragement/reinforcement isn't always direct. It can be indirect. If a wall's in front of you, you're encouraged to go in another direction. Trying to debate semantics with us is only going to serve to make you come across as rude. Try to avoid it. And for the record, you are far from innocent in the factor of abandoning threads to cause them to die, and, by your logic, causing characters to drop or members to leave. In which case I definitely shouldn't consider your point, mm?

2. No, this isn't really something you can debate. This is a fact. If you spend time making your character then you in turn put much more thought into your character. In turn, you actually are less likely to lose muse, because you've contemplated the character more. Fact. Not opinion.

3. We do not have an employer/employee relationship or anything of the sort. With the disrespect and hard-headedness you've displayed here, you'd be fired if we did.

4. Okay, first of all, my math problem isn't talking about a person's willingness to rp. It's talking about their availability to rp. If they are fettered down to the point that they can only post once every 72 hours, then they in reality only have to deal with the rule for 20 days. Second of all by that very logic, you shouldn't have recognized an issue in the first place. Don't think to talk down to me just because I have plenty of character slots. You have just as many. Surprisingly our number of character slots doesn't require me to look at a simple rule with simple restrictions and blow it out of proportion by pretending it is a serious detriment to new members.

5. No. That's not what she's saying. Again, you're using your ridiculous standpoint to blow things out of proportion. This is a hobby. When you force people to do a hobby it is no longer a hobby. We want them to stay; of course we do! But we're not going to pretend that we can try to keep them here against their will, or like they're products of a company we run. That's what she's saying.

6. No, this has not created an issue. This is not a warning label policy. This is a "Take care of your belongings" policy. It encourages you to take more consideration into making a character and to try and find new and creative ways to roleplay them when you encounter a problem, and even THEN for a short amount of time. Pretending it's some kind of serious repercussion is ridiculous.

A plant doesn't grow straight up without some kind of brace to guide it there. A child doesn't grow right into an adult without a guiding hand, and in much the same way, a roleplayer doesn't develop right unless you help them there. Much like you were encouraged to brush your teeth so they don't fall out, this encourages you to streamline your creativity into an efficient creation that you are truly interested in, and to tough it out when it starts getting a little dry. Good characters are made through adversity in roleplay and out.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:17 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm inclined to think we'd need a section just for suggestions on changing rules. I'd like to thank Megalosans for bringing this to public attention. I've read all the posts that came before and well, you're all kinda right. I know that sounds weird, but to me, the 2-month rule had a distinct purpose. Seeing it's in my old rulebook, I find it necessary to explain it as I made those posts, or at least provide my thoughts behind it.

I do feel like I'm always late to these rather interesting discussions, forgive me.

(http://ttrpg.forumotion.com/t801-the-ttrpg-official-rulebook#16663)

Before I go into the rule itself, I want you all to know some things. There's hardly harsh truths, but they are essential to understand my reasoning behind all this.

Oh and, If any of this offends you. Let me know. It's not my intention in the slightest.

First, the rulebook was made to cater to the most wide demographic of members possible. It will always have a niche that cannot be addressed properly. In these events, it is for the staff to consider if they change a rule. Every change will have an impact that is both expected and unexpected, so it is for them to value the changes accordingly. From what I've seen behind the screens, it is something the staff busies themselves with on a daily basis.

Second, the staff are members as well. They too wish to play in the TTRPG sandbox. They adhere to the same rules. They invest some, if not most, of their precious RP time into managing a forum for superhero enthusiasts of many tastes. I am extremely blessed to still see this site do so well after all this time. Everyone here is here because of their passion for this hobby. At least, I hope everyone is Smile   

Third, I've had people ask me to change the rule before, if I can remember correctly. I did not. It was on TTRPG2, a site I created when I did not have full access to this website. Back there, there were basically two staff members who spent ALL their time on administrative duties. It was Krious and myself. Sure, later we added more staff members, but the whole start up and booming period was us together (And I know you're reading this sooner or later Krious, you shadowy ^*#(@!@ :P).

Now, what does that have to do with anything? Well, as we had new members who had no restrictions on creating characters, we would often dedicate time to rather sloppy character sheets. As those members were new they did not try to be descriptive. We tried to help them, but if we had more then a few adjustments, they would swear at us and leave or stick to make it worse for others....or drop the application and create a new one. This would continue on for a while. If a character would get approved, we would also notice sloppy RP's coming from sloppy applications. Furthermore, trying to help these people get better would result in a bitter member leaving anyway. Or swearing at us heavily. Guess why I added censoring and have a rule against swearing? It muddles down everything. It even corrected a rather mundane word I used above to describe Krious...

Aligning that to current events, how is the Dojo doing in helping members? I've had 3 people, two dropped out. One I closed after 12 days of not posting.   

Now, this one rule lifted a lot of the burden from Krious and myself. It does the same for the staff now. We were able to dedicate more time to advancing stories and other fields which needed help. One rule did more than hours of application reviews and trying to help members in a Dojo-esque fashion.

While it might sounds utopian, not all members get better with more freedom. Clear rules do more than the absence of these rules.

And I didn't even talk about balancing. Approving an application is 'easy' in of itself, but upholding a constant balance on the website is almost impossible. It's why there's a double review process, it's why it takes a lot of time. Every new character should never be able to completely negate another or be too strong/weak compared to any other. It takes time, and if people then easily drop characters, it isn't rewarding for anyone.

If we were to change the rule and have it be flexible, as proposed before (A week or so for one, a few weeks for two) - That sounds like a good idea, but who would tally these times? It's a system that could be placed, but would force staff members to also check if a character has been on long enough. Shorter periods increase their workload, and decreased their own time to RP. It would allow me to create and drop a character every week. I don't think I would want to encourage such actions myself. I can remember revising my characters over and over to make sure I had something amazing. Finding out if they truly worked would usually take about two months, so there was no problem there.

As for previous statements by multiple members that would simply copy over anime characters...Well, that doesn't sounds creative to me. I am dreadfully sorry to say this, but I do not find these original. (Anime) characters have a reason to be where they are. They serve their plot. It took great writing to create and place them, it's understandable that wouldn't work in Jump.

I was completely enamored by some fighting game characters myself, but I always made something personal. Interestingly, these characters would sometimes change wildly after some RP's. Case in point:  

(http://ttrpg.forumotion.com/t647-ryuko-rain-shikarii  -  Guess who's one of my favorite fighting game characters? )    

In closing, I can fully understand if anyone finds this rule restrictive. However, it pushes a member to truly consider their characters. From what I have seen on this website, that is a beautiful thing. It serves a good cause in this. The truth is every rule cannot completely cater to everyone's taste. It's every members choice to either adhere to this or not.

I am sorry, I wish I would be able to make that happen. I could go on for hours, but I think this might be enough.

Now, I do feel there might be a need to have some rules explained (I imagine some might have questions about the old death rule amongst other) and it might help to see what needs clarification. I will submit this request to the staff in due time.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:58 pm

Thank you as always for your input Emblem. It is ever helpful.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 month character ban policy   Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:09 pm

Yes Emblem, thanks for for sharing your thoughts, however, I'd like to suggest some things as well, perhaps this can be seen as a middle ground?

How about making a thread that has to do with dropping or editing a character, and members can post there to inform staff that they wish to switch or drop characters. If their name shows up three times or more, then the two month thing should apply to slow them down. If regulating this thread encroaches on staff member free time, you could have a few active members as scouts, not necessarily mods, but they can track the thread and help with regulating and strikes. Any additional information about the character can be discussed outside the thread so that it doesn't get overly crowded with posts, and of course there shouldn't be any double posting. To verify that the request has been acknowledged, a scout or a mod would say so, and tell them how many strikes they have left.

Just an idea ^^'

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